playing out of tune with a tuner

[Anonymous]

Something thats been puzzling me for over a year when listening to other peoples uploads – they insist that they have checked their higher notes (the ones above mid C) with a guitar tuner and insist their notes were in tune with said tuner, yet when they play a song the higher notes sound either flat or sharp.

How is it possible that a high B can be in tune with a tuner, yet when the high B is played in an upload its sounds out of tune?

From some late investigation into comments by past sax players – apparantly when you listen to low fundamentals on the sax your mind is hearing the upper notes in the low fundamentals without you being aware of it and comparing it to the higher played notes and giving the sensation of the higher notes being slightly off key.

For instance if you play a high Bb overtone on the low Bb key, the whole length of the sax is vibrating with the sound. Whereas when you play a high Bb flat, only the top third of the sax is vibrating with the sound – the sound is escaping higher up. Hence the reason why some sax players use more than 1 microphone when recording.

So in comparing the 2 Bb sounds due to difference in lengths of sax metal vibrating, both sounds wont have the same sound/timbre.

So what these old players were doing to get an even natural beautiful sound across all the registers was to adjust their larnyx for the higher played notes to make them sound more in tune with the overtone sounds produced by the lower fundamental notes from low Bb to low C#.
Something you cant rely on a tuner to do.

Well theres my 2 cents worth, interesting to hear what other people think?

[Kevin]

My 2 cents- checking one’s pitch against a tuner IMHO is to get the mouthpiece adjusted where the embrochure/lip control of the pitch has the most relaxed “natural” reference position to achieve playing the range of the notes of the sax “relatively” in tune. But an accomplished player has to have trained muscle control of air delivery, throat muscles, oral cavity/jaw/tongue muscles, embrochure muscles, to be able to “auto-tune” on the fly. Most of the saxes I have played are plagued with lower register notes that are on the flat side, and higher register notes that are on the sharp side, and various other notes throughout the spectrum that un-characteristically sharp or flat to the adjacent notes above or below them.
When someone checks his pitch against a tuner, they are very likely subconsciously making the corrections to center the needle- be it making their air delivery very precisely controlled, their embrochure in it’s most natural position, etc..
Now put that person into the live dynamics of playing music where all the other moving parts have to synchronize, expression with all the embellishments to be added, the air delivery has to be adjusted to control soft and loud notes. The way you end notes can make them go sharp as we have heard Johnny comment on time and again.
Then the muscles can begin to fade due to a long passage with no break, and your ability to be able to keep that pitch dialed in fails.

So checking one’s higher notes to a tuner and getting the impression that hey I played them in tune, doesn’t mean that one will be able to play them in tune throughout a challenging piece of music, especially if your chops or air supply can go the distance…

[Kevin]

Can’t go the distance is how that above comment should have read…

[Ridge]

When I performed at church last week I had tuned to the piano at home the day before. I was only able to tune the notes of the left hand G# G A A# B C# C ect. for I needed the right hand for the piano. I adjusted the mouthpiece a few different times until I felt comfortable with all the different notes and I left the mouthpiece on the sax. went and played the songs at church the next day and was amazed that the notes I played sounded so in tune, they really sang out. was it a fluke I don’t think so. but most of the notes were in the mid range the highest was a second octave A. That A and and The E are what caught my attention and as I was playing and I said to my self perfect. I had played the songs at home with out using the backing tracks. I also stood close to the piano and could here his monitor witch I am sure helped.

[Anonymous]

Kevin thanks for the input – it confirms & rules out a lot of my own opinions.
When i get the chance to play in an orchestra & in jazz/swing bands i meet up with a lot of seasoned players,
someone of them worn out about being asked the same old questions over their lifespan and often prefer a quiet life.
But when i do bump into some of them that are talkative, especially when they see you have a passionate interest they tend to be more forthcoming and less vague.
But the general consensus i’ve gleaned is that newer players to the sax in their opinion commonly have the higher register tuning/intonation problems, and from their experiences i’ve started experimenting with their suggestions to overcome these areas.
Like yourself i have problems with the upper register (mid D upwards) being slightly offkey, and using their suggestions has been rewarding.

[Anonymous]

Thanks Ridge – i don’t use a tuner to check if my pitches are in tune, i use my ears and the surrounding sounds to tune to.
When i play with backing tracks i’m constantly adjusting my larynx to bring the pitches in line with the pitches on the backing track, same as in playing next to other players.
If i can’t do it with my larynx, then i know the mouthpiece is in the wrong place, or the reed is on its way out.

[Author]

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